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Author Topic: Is it gunnah to wish a non muslim in his/her festival...?  (Read 36773 times) Average Rating: 0
Shifa Chishty
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« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2010, 10:55:36 AM »

At last one sensible men on the forum (mushfique)

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Wais eek Fatwa share karna chahta hun Darul Ifta Ahle Sunnat Karachi ka jismein Mufti saheb ne Kaha hai ke non muslim ko rasmi talukat ke binah per mubarakbaad dena gunah hai kufr nahi aur agar kaafiron ke kisi din ko baa azmat jaanke uski Mubarak baadi detahai to aisa shaks kaafir hai.

Mushfique

Very well said brother..
Khwaja ki nagri ki to baat hi alag hai yahan to har ek ko milta hai..jo maangta hai...Love towards all and Malice towards None...
but bhai masla yahan par alag hai..

Yahan to Ek Scholar apne chand gair Musalmaan logon ko apne ghar bula kar unke saath Christmas bnaa rhe hain.
And According to the Fatwa you have shared Which i am Sure is from a SUNNI SCHOOL OF THOUGHT that its Gunah and Not Kufr so i want to know why is this Scholar doing Gunah and asking others also to do it.

Also one person on this forum has said that NO Other Muslim scholar or Silisila does this...
Means he is trying to prove all other Sililsa and Scholars wrong..

Also it means that there is ONLY ONE SUNNI SCHOLAR in this world who has real understanding of Sunnah and Quran and rest all
have till not Understood Quran and Hadees at all...

This is absurd. I think the person favoring it is badly mistaken and passing on wrong information here on the forum.

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« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2010, 10:55:36 AM »

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masood
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« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2010, 11:09:22 AM »

Quote
Admin se Guzarish hai ke unhone jo polling rakha hai usmein topic galat likha hai.
Admin ne likha hai topic :   Is it Gunaah to celebrate Christmas with Non Muslims.?
Jubke asli topic hai:            Is it gunnah to wish a non muslim in his/her festival...?

Ye agar janbujhke kiya jaa raha hai to fir no excuse aur agar galti se to admin ne kuch karna chahiye.
Mushfique

Assalaamualycum Wa Rehamtullahe Wa Barkathu. brother Mushfique.
As rightly said by one sisters that the Topic started of as "Is it Gunah to Wish a Non Muslim"  but Once brother Talib-E-ILM posted that Video of Dr Tahir Sahib then the whole Discussion diverted to Celebrating Christmas with Non Muslims and apart from the first 2 post all the other Post are discussing  the celebration of Christmas with Non Muslims hence the Title was given.

And it is a very broad title which shows whats happening in the Video and the BANNER clearly says Merry Christmas at the back  and a Non Muslim priest standing next to Dr. Tahir Sahib with a Big Cross in his Neck. so hence the Poll was Is celebrating Christmas with Non Muslims Gunaah. It means in their premises or in our premises any which way is it Gunaah or Not.


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« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2010, 11:09:22 AM »

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RHS
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« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2010, 11:23:55 AM »

Asslamalikum brothers and sisters.
Reading this thread which has gone really big now so many posts it took me one hour to read and understand the whole discussion and how it got shifted from one simple question...

My Age is 62 and i am not familiar with computers so please excuse my mistakes.

Now joining the Current discussion i would like to share my thoughts..

Some bros told me that Minhaj are sending leaflets to some of their Masjids saying its okay to let Christians inside mosques if they want to worship,
Which i thought ok..
But even if they want to worship Christ and celebrate xmas Shocked Angry

Shaykh-Ul-Islam Dr is a great speaker but why has he done this..Huh

I believe another Sunni Shaykh has given a concise answer to Muslims partaking in what is essentially a pagan festival.

For all the good work he has doubtlessly done I think issues like this I know many ppl who I would consider neutrals are putting off SUNNIYAT due to this.


Also Minhajis suffer from the typical illness amongst most murids indo-pak in that anyone who questions him is mocked rather than answered.



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Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2010, 11:29:26 AM »

True brother "RHS" Many Minhajis have this attitude instead of listening to what you have to say they will start criticizing you and mocking you if you ask them something..


coming back to the topic..

There has been an article (in Urdu) which has appeared in a magazine called Qadiri Razvi (or a name along similar lines) which has been displayed on my local  Masjid noticeboard today.This article says the same thing as the leaflets that Brother RHS has seen, namely that Allama Dr Professor Dr Tahir ul Qadri has said that it is OK to let Christians celebrate Christmas inside mosques. Furthermore it also states that he has opened up Minhaj Ul Quran centres to allow this to happen.

I do not believe it is true and will refuse to believe it until somebody shows me irrefutable proof.

Somebody of Professor sahibs knowledge knows that, as lockdown has pointed out , that Christmas is essentially a pagan festival subsumed by Trinitarian Christianity. It celebrates the birth of a person who they see as the "son of God" not the person that we revere as one of The Beloved Messengers of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala Hadrat Isa alayhis 'salam.

Although Christians are thought to be "people of the book" nevertheless if we allowed them to celebrate Christmas in mosques then to remain consistent we would also have to allow Hindus to celebrate the birth of Ram.

After all for Muslims it is shirk whether you believe that Hadrat Isa alayhis 'salam is "the son of God "or believe Ram to be Bhagvan.

To be fair then wouldn't you have to allow both?

I do believe Professor Sahib would be alert to all these dangers and not suggest something that flies in the face in our fundamental belief of Tawhid.

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DesignJinni
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« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2010, 02:34:29 PM »

Some points form a Sunni Website "SunniPath"... here they are

Gifts during the Christmas season
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=2769&CATE=138
There is nothing wrong with accepting the gifts: these are not per se religious acts, but social customs.

It is permitted to give gifts during the Winter Break with the intention of strengthening family ties, though one should try on'�s best to do so in a dignified but distinct manner, in order to avoid falling into the semblance imitation.

Family Christmas celebration
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=3632
Keeping family ties is an obligation on every Muslim, i.e. with one's parents. If wine is served then such meals or gatherings are devoid of blessing and one should neither condone nor participate in them except for the minimum presence that filial respect demands.

As for fasting on Christmas and doing a lot of dhikr in memory of `Isa, then no, one should rather observe all the well-known Sunna fasts such as every Monday and Thursday, the three "white days" in the middle of the month, or every other day; and one should do a lot of salawat on the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, and convey the reward of dhikr and acts of worship and good deeds to him; and then, from him, to all other Prophets and Awliya including `Isa, upon him peace.

Christmas presents to non-muslims
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=12050&CATE=1
There is nothing wrong with giving presents to one's non-Muslim neighbors, friends, and co-workers. Rather, this is from the sunna of being good to one's neighbors and others whom one has relationships with. [Mulla Khusro, Durar]

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) emphasized the rights of neighbors and those one has any kind of relationship with in numerous hadiths, and these do not distinguish betweeen Muslim and non-Muslim neighbors.

However, the proper way to give presents during these festive seasons, is to make one's gesture general or seasonal, rather than relating to their specific religious celebrations. Thus, one would say, for example, "Seasons greetings," or "Happy New Year," or other general expressions, as our ulema explain.

And Allah alone gives success.


As far as Tahir ul Qadri video is concerned, He invites for interfaith dialouge, the whole event is based on "Interfaith Dialouge" and was held on the day of Mery Christmas. Christians are Ahl-e-Kitab, whereas the Hindus or other idol worshippers are not.

The Banner reads:
Minhajul Quran International welcomes and wishes
Merry Christmas to Christian Brothers & Sisters.
Dr. Muhammad Tahir ul Qadri
Muslim Christian Dialogue Forum.


Merry Christmas ceremony by MCDF of MQI

Interfaith & intra-faith Dialogue is necessary for World Peace by Dr.Tahir-ul-Qadri
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Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2010, 03:07:55 PM »

brother GENIE,

I would like you to read the previous threads once again The Discussion going on here is not about Giving Gifts or Maintaining Family Ties and neither about Interfaith Dialogue.

The Discussion here is about the belief of Minhajis that celebrating Christmas with Christians is it Ok as done by Dr. Tahirul Qadri Sahib.

Brother i have gone through all the Answers from SunniPath website nowhere it says that its allowed to celebrate Christmas.

Moreover the last sentence says

However, the proper way to give presents during these festive seasons, is to make one's gesture general or seasonal, rather than relating to their specific religious celebrations. Thus, one would say, for example, "Seasons greetings," or "Happy New Year," or other general expressions, as our ulema explain.


But thats what is NOT DONE here..the Banner saying Merry Christmas is going against the teachings of Sunni Ulemas.

I hope our point is clear..
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DesignJinni
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« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2010, 03:24:50 PM »

Dear Ajmal, that is why I said in my 1st line some points from SunniPath, not proof for its validity. i.e the statement from Sunnipath "Keeping family ties is an obligation on every Muslim, i.e. with one's parents. If wine is served then such meals or gatherings are devoid of blessing and one should neither condone nor participate in them except for the minimum presence that filial respect demands. "

Does this mean that if its fulfilling the Islamic laws then one can have family Christmas celebration? And even if you have a family Christmas festival with a non-Muslim parents or vice versa then surely there would be wishes such as merry Christmas.

The subject for the topic is "Is it gunnah to wish a non Muslim in his/her festival" not Minhajul Quran, and if as per the fatwa a family Christmas festival can be made and gifts can be exchanges as well... and things like a scholar "Tahir ul Qadri" writing Merry Christmas ...hmmm these things move the discussion onto a different level.

But to me things need to be more clearer then this... hence I am still researching .... No verdict yet Smiley
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Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2010, 03:35:05 PM »

Brother Genie.
1. First of all I would like to tell you that any Website starting with the Word Sunni may Not be a Sunni site..Like sunniforum.com (Is not a sunni site)
2. Yes the Topics started of with something and once the video of Tahir Sahib was posted the focus was completely shifted
3. For me just a formal wish to a non muslim does not have any problem but celebrating it DEFINATELY has problems

4. MOST IMPORTANT - Ok now referring to the SITE which you quoted..I will use the same site and will prove that its Impermissible.
Read this thread carefully.

Shaykh from the your site sums this up in one of his Fatawa: He states:

It is not proper for Muslims to bow down before such avenues of sin. The challenges to what Islam forbids being experienced by you give you all the more occasion to stay firm on your Faith. And should the Muslims living in non-Muslims countries (and they are not that few) could get to agree on not participating in such functions, chances are that non-Muslims themselves would be left with no reasonable option but to weed out such disagreeable practices from their functions. (See: Contemporary Fatawa, p. 292)

If the party or gathering is connected to some religious event of the non-Muslims, such as Christmas parties, then also it will be impermissible for one to participate. The reason behind this is that, by taking part in their religious functions and gatherings, one will be indirectly approving of their disbelief (kufr) and their religion. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade Muslims to even offer their own Salat at the time of sunrise, zenith and sunset, for there was an element of outwardly resembling the sun worshippers.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=2752&CATE=107


See now all Muslim Scholars are on One side and Tahir Sahib on another.
For Minhajis the only sole Authority on Islam is Tahir Sahib but for the WORLD its not so...

Celebrating Christmas is certainly not permissible with all the Sunni Scholars of Islam (excluding Tahir Sahib.)

We have to favour the HAQ.


With All Due RESPECT to Hazrat Tahirul Qadri Sahab.
Still I have immense honour and respect for him but these actions of his leave a bitter taste in your mind...

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DesignJinni
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« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2010, 03:42:04 PM »

Ahmad Deedat & Dr.Tahir ul Qadri in Favour of Celebrating Mawlid & Christmas ! (Embedding disabled, limit reached)
Dr.Tahir-ul-Qadri's Reply on Issue of Interfaith Dawah-Who is Padri?Tahir-ul-Qadri or Jahil Maulvies (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

Watch the videos on the link below as well:
Interfaith Dialogue - Muslim Christian Dialogue Forum (MCDF)
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=16D7BBB2AE1584E4 (Embedding disabled, limit reached)


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Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2010, 03:48:12 PM »

Brother your research is misleading you..
Dont You know that Shaikh Deedat is TEACHER OF ZAKIR NAIK.
Shaikh Deedat has called ZAKIR NAIK. Shaikh Deedat (plus)

Now dont take support of these wahabis to prove your point brother..

Shaykh sums this up in one of his Fatawa: He states:

It is not proper for Muslims to bow down before such avenues of sin. The challenges to what Islam forbids being experienced by you give you all the more occasion to stay firm on your Faith. And should the Muslims living in non-Muslims countries (and they are not that few) could get to agree on not participating in such functions, chances are that non-Muslims themselves would be left with no reasonable option but to weed out such disagreeable practices from their functions. (See: Contemporary Fatawa, p. 292)

If the party or gathering is connected to some religious event of the non-Muslims, such as Christmas parties, then also it will be impermissible for one to participate. The reason behind this is that, by taking part in their religious functions and gatherings, one will be indirectly approving of their disbelief (kufr) and their religion. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade Muslims to even offer their own Salat at the time of sunrise, zenith and sunset, for there was an element of outwardly resembling the sun worshippers.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=2752&CATE=107


See now all Muslim Scholars are on One side and Tahir Sahib on another.
For Minhajis the only sole Authority on Islam is Tahir Sahib but for the WORLD its not so...

Celebrating Christmas is certainly not permissible with all the Sunni Scholars of Islam (excluding Tahir Sahib.)

We have to favour the HAQ.


With All Due RESPECT to Hazrat Tahirul Qadri Sahab.
Still I have immense honour and respect for him but these actions of his leave a bitter taste in your mind...
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Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2010, 03:52:05 PM »

Interfaith Dialogue - Muslim Christian Dialogue Forum (MCDF) or for that matter any other religion IS Very important
but that does not mean u make a Banner of MERRY CHRISTMAS and celebrate christmas.

if 2mrw u need to do a Dialogue with Hindus you will put a Banner "Jai Ram Ji" ki...Smiley

Interfaith dialogues does not mean you start favoring their religion..


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DesignJinni
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« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2010, 04:01:44 PM »

SunniPath is neither a Brelvi nor a deband site.... its a neutral based Sunni website... having all the ulemas of the both jammats.

As far as Sheikh Ahmed Deedat is concerned his fiqh is totally different from Zakir naik, Deedat was in favour of Mawild where as Naik is against it... Leave the Wahabi, even the deobandis do not believe in Mawlid... Smiley where as Shaykh "Usmani" is also from the Debandi group, it is not that I do not respect him... some opinions may differ but these ulemas have my great respect.

Ajmal, I agree with you, not to celebrate the event "Christmas" itself, but again is Tahirul Qadri really celebrating this event? You just said "formal wish to a non Muslim does not have any problem but celebrating it DEFINATELY has problems"

I agree to the same, but if you see the complete video of Tahir ul Qadri it’s an interfaith dialogue not a Christmas Celebration. And just saying merry Christmas does not mean you are celebrating it right? As you said formal saying or wishing does not matter… plus hindu are not Ahle Bait, and the word Merry Christmas meaning itself does not fall in the same category as “Jai Ram Ji”

Please watch the link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKJboKjqcbE (Embedding disabled, limit reached)
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Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2010, 04:15:10 PM »

Brother..what is the Need to put up a Banner approving their belief in first Case..this Interfaith Dialogue could have been much better without that Banner and Much better not to be on Christmas day..

You still dint read the whole thread..Read what brother RHS has written...
These Minhajis are distributing Pamphlets in their Masjid about Celebrating Christmas to be allowed in Minhaj Centers and Masjids and thats True.

Brother the concept of People of the Book does not imply here...
The Banner was put to please the opposite Faith and if Hindus would have been invited then this would have been Jai Ram Ji ki instead...

I have listened to the entire youtube link..it talks about Rasool Allah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam being nice to the King of Habsha bcoz he was nice to the Muslims and he provided Refuge to Muslim... RasoolAllah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam also took care of the Guests himself and that what is SUNNAH ALL ABOUT...i agree with it..

But Nauzubillah Rasoolallah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam did not encourage their beliefs or agree with them on celebrating their festivals.

A little more research on this topic lead me to belive that Celebrating Christmas on 25 Dec is not only a NON MUSLIM FESTIVAL but its also going against the Quran. On One of the forums i read... ISA  Alaihis Salaam . was NEVER Born on 25th DECEMBER or fot that matter in WINTER SEASON....

I also wanted to note that December 25 is not the real birthday of Isa I'm sure most of us know that it was a pagan holiday to celebrated the death of the son of the sun diety Ra, who also had 12 disciples and the origins of this date for Christians is that it was chosen in 221 AD by Sextus Julius Africanas as the birthdate. Biblically it is supposed to be the Spring or Summer as can be seen in the Book of Luke and not in the Winter.



The Qur'an tells us of the birth:



"And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree......And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee." (Qur'an 19:23 and 25)


Scholars agreed that this event was a miracle as an average person can't simply shake a palm tree like that to get dates, yet Allah made it so! From this verse we get the idea that it was likely to be during the harvest season, which at the time could be in the beginning weeks in the Summer.

We don't know the precise date, hence why celebrating the Milad for Isa  Alaihis Salaam . would be difficult. Allah knows best.


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DesignJinni
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« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2010, 04:25:09 PM »

We all know Jesus was not born on the 25th of December Smiley and am aware of its history as well and in the link which I provided of Tahir l Qadri, if Prophet Muhammad sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam allowed them to say their prayers and Christian ibdat in Masjid Nabwi, does that not look like encouragement as well that he allowed it?

Quote
"These Minhajis are distributing Pamphlets in their Masjid about Celebrating Christmas to be allowed in Minhaj Centers and Masjids and thats True."

Brother, "Celebrating Christmas to be allowed in Minhaj Centers" for whom -- the Muslims celeberating it or approving that Christans can use these space to celeberate?

Any ways no further Comments ... I rest the case for the time being...we both have our opinions and points posted for others to se… we are not here to dictate things  Cheers!
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Your Brother in Islam
Ajmal Siddiquie
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« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2010, 04:37:12 PM »

Brother, "Celebrating Christmas to be allowed in Minhaj Centers" for whom -- the Muslims celeberating it or approving that Christans can use these space to celeberate?

APPROVING Christians to use these space to celebrate with the Muslims as was being done in the MINHAAJ CENTER where this dialogue took place.

No brother the Prophet Muhammad  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam allowing christians dint seem like Encouragement bcoz RasoolAllah  sal-lal-lahu alai hi wa sallam DID Not PARTICIPATE In these Acts NOR DId he ask the Sahabas to participate in those Prayers or CELEBRATION...

This is Clear proof indicating that such acts are Not Allowed.

Secondly the Most Important thing is

If you KNOW THAT YOUR ACTIONS are GOING  DIRECTLY Against the QURAN And still you advocate others to do it and
DO IT Urself then i guess You should NOW TELL me what such a person should be called..


But all said and done i still Listen to Tahir Sahib as i listen to Scholars of All Religions and Sects to gain knowledge...
And Will continue listening to him to gain knowledge but will never be a part of such uncalled for actions....
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